The New York Times asked more than 500 TV insiders and experts to select their 10 favorite shows that premiered in the 21st century. That survey of the 100 best TV shows published this week.

There’s lots of golden age and prestige TV on it — “Mad Men,” “Game of Thrones,” “Succession,” “Severance” — but also some outliers that illustrate a medium in flux. In the last 25 years, we’ve started talking about TV more seriously, treating it like an art form. But what kind of art form is it now?

On today’s episode, Wesley is joined by Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan, the hosts of The Ringer podcast, “The Watch,” to talk about how they voted and what this list tells us about where TV has been, and where it might be going.

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